{"id":548,"date":"2009-04-28T13:46:25","date_gmt":"2009-04-28T12:46:25","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/t-machine.org\/?p=548"},"modified":"2009-04-28T13:46:25","modified_gmt":"2009-04-28T12:46:25","slug":"getting-paid-in-dollars-with-a-uk-bank-dont-use-paypal","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/2009\/04\/28\/getting-paid-in-dollars-with-a-uk-bank-dont-use-paypal\/","title":{"rendered":"Getting paid in Dollars with a UK bank: don&#8217;t use PayPal"},"content":{"rendered":"<h4>Introduction<\/h4>\n<p>I travel to the USA frequently, both for conferences and for business\/meetings. On each occasion, I spend anything from a few hundred dollars to a few thousand (sometimes the hotels are paid in dollars, sometimes part of the airfares, plus all the spending for the duration of the visit).<\/p>\n<p>Over the years, I occasionally received payment from USA companies, although in the past year this has become more frequent. Obviously, it&#8217;s stupid for me to pay the exchange rate premium twice (once in each direction) AND pay commision (twice!) AND pay any bank-specific charges for the priviledge &#8211; when I&#8217;m actually guranteed to spend those dollars sooner or later as actual dollars.<\/p>\n<p>I asked my UK bank (Halifax) about opening a dollar account. They claimed to have never heard of such a thing, and had the temerity to open a browswer window and go surfing on Google to try and find out if it&#8217;s a service they offer (they offer at least three different services along those lines &#8211; Halifax&#8217;s head office should probably put a call through to the Brighton branch-manager and ask why they have untrained staff manning the branch at the moment).<\/p>\n<p>So I went looking into the alternatives myself. The main things I need are:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Deposit money in dollars (preferably by transfer from other people&#8217;s USA accounts)\n<li>Deposit money in sterling (I&#8217;d avoid this, but it might be necessary if I have a lot of USA spending to do at some point)\n<li>Withdraw dollars from ATMs in the USA\n<li>Transfer money in dollars to other people&#8217;s USA accounts (payment for services etc)\n<\/ol>\n<p><!--more--><\/p>\n<h4>PayPal<\/h4>\n<p>Cash withdrawal: 3%<br \/>\nCash deposit: 3.4% (2.9% if you take > $25,000 per annum)<br \/>\nCash deposit own currency: 3%<br \/>\nTransfer to other person: free<br \/>\nAnnual fee: \u00a32.50\/year surcharge for owning a debit card (the credit card is &#8220;free&#8221;)<\/p>\n<p>Total: 6.4%-12.5% + \u00a32.50 per year is taken by PayPal<\/p>\n<p>Verdict: PayPal is a rip-off. They carefully hide their true overall charges. You should avoid them like the plague. Bear in mind that &#8211; in total &#8211; that&#8217;s one eighth of ALL your money that you&#8217;re &#8220;gifting&#8221; to PayPal in reutnr for, well, nothing really.<\/p>\n<h4>Lloyds TSB \/ Bank of Scotland \/ Halifax &#8220;International&#8221;<\/h4>\n<p>Minimum cash in account: \u00a31500 (NB: their website claims otherwise, but the website is wrong)<br \/>\nAnnual fee: \u00a390.00<br \/>\nCash withdrawal: 1.5%<br \/>\nCash deposit own currency: \u00a310 + 2% (min: \u00a313 fee per deposit)<br \/>\nTransfer to other person: 0.25% (min: \u00a313 fee per transfer)<br \/>\nTransfer from other person: \u00a37<br \/>\nCheque deposit: \u00a32 per cheque<\/p>\n<p>Total: 1.5%-3.5% + \u00a317 (or more) + \u00a390 per year is taken by Lloyds<\/p>\n<p>Verdict: as the Lloyds website asks &#8220;Why bank in other currencies?&#8221; Why, indeed &#8211; the bank is going to rape you for all you&#8217;ve got, and do its best to take more money from you than your government takes in taxes. It&#8217;s also worth noting that although Lloyds has a page dedicated to comparing their service to their competitors, it&#8217;s incorrect both about their services and their competitors; generally, I&#8217;m used to such false claims being illegal. Oh well. I certainly wouldn&#8217;t trust anything else they say having seen that.<\/p>\n<p>PS: their pre-tax profits in 2008? $3.5 billion. I wonder why?<\/p>\n<h4>Halifax &#8220;National&#8221;<\/h4>\n<p>Halifax refuses to provide any information on their website.<\/p>\n<p>Verdict: why do they keep this secret? Would they rather rip you off, and have you find out how much money they&#8217;re going to take from you only after you&#8217;ve actually paid it (which sounds pretty immoral to me)?<\/p>\n<p>As noted above, the branches are unaware of their own services, and are effectively useless here.<\/p>\n<p>Short of snail mail, and waiting months for an answer, the only way you can find out is to phone a pay-by-the-minute premium phone number and go through an automated system. Yes, you have to pay for the priviledge of finding out how much they&#8217;re going to charge you. Forget it.<\/p>\n<h4>HSBC &#8220;Offshore&#8221;<\/h4>\n<p>Annual fee: \u00a3240 (or &#8220;free&#8221; if you have over \u00a325,000 with HSBC)<br \/>\nCheque deposit: \u00a330 per annum<br \/>\nCash withdrawal: 2% (min fee $3) (NB: you have to pay this even from HSBC&#8217;s own cash machines!)<br \/>\nCash deposit own currency: free (I think?)<br \/>\nTransfer to other person: \u00a315 (to HSBC bank), \u00a325 (any other bank)<\/p>\n<p>Total: 2% + \u00a325-\u00a330 (or more) + \u00a3240 per year<\/p>\n<p>Verdict: HSBC is a major bank in both the UK and the USA. There is no excuse for them double-dipping and charging UK customers punitive fees for USA transactions (e.g. they will charge you to use an HSBC cash machine, in the USA, to withdraw dollars from a dollar account!). It&#8217;s particularly amazing that they charge you \u00a315 (approx $20) just to do a funds transfer to anyone else who has an account WITH THE SAME BANK.<\/p>\n<h4>HSBC &#8220;Current Account + Internet Banking&#8221;<\/h4>\n<p>Annaul fee: free<br \/>\nCheque deposit: ? (HSBC website refuses to say)<br \/>\nCash withdrawal: Unknown, almost certainly &#8220;punitively high&#8221; (HSBC website refuses to say) + 2%<br \/>\nTransfer to other person: ? (HSBC website refuses to say)<\/p>\n<p>Total: (guesstimate): 5% + \u00a325 (or more) is taken by HSBC<\/p>\n<p>Verdict: the &#8220;Internet Banking&#8221; service claims to come with commission-free currency transfers. Except that you won&#8217;t be allowed to do cash-withdrawals from an Internet Banking account &#8211; and it&#8217;s anyone&#8217;s guess what they charge. Given they double-dip their own customers on the &#8220;intended for people wanting to pay in dollars&#8221; account, you can safely assume that the charges for doing payments this way will be high; bear in mind there is an *additional* 2% charge on top of whatever else they charge you.<\/p>\n<h4>Wells Fargo &#8211; non-resident bank account<\/h4>\n<p>I thought that post 9\/11 &#8220;open a USA bank account, in the USA, as a non-resident&#8221; would be effectively impossible.<\/p>\n<p>Apparently, it&#8217;s more straightforward than most of the existing options for people who already have accounts with their own banks. The only tricky part is filling out W8-BEN forms to do with tax withholding and\/or obtaining ITIN numbers (that the USA government issues to foreign nationals so that they exist inside the USA taxation system).<\/p>\n<p>If you&#8217;re an iPhone developer like me, then this is a pain you have already been through, and you&#8217;re something of an expert on it (it&#8217;s necessary for any non-USA based new iPhone developers if they want to sell iPhone apps). So, actually, that doesn&#8217;t intimidate me.<\/p>\n<p>Essentially, you just need to download and process the application form here (*full* details on what is required are included inside the form itself):<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.wellsfargo.com\/downloads\/pdf\/com\/inatl\/ipb\/wellsfargo_ipb_indi_download.pdf\">https:\/\/www.wellsfargo.com\/downloads\/pdf\/com\/inatl\/ipb\/wellsfargo_ipb_indi_download.pdf<\/a><\/p>\n<p>Verdict: &#8230;this is going to require some additional investigation, as I cannot find info on the WF website to confirm\/deny the charges etc levied (or not) for use of this account. But I&#8217;ll come back and re-edit this later if\/when I find out the actual info for non-residents.<\/p>\n<h4>Conclusions<\/h4>\n<p>PayPal &#8211; don&#8217;t make me laugh (actually, it&#8217;s more likely to make you cry). This is absurd &#8211; more than 10% of the money you put through PayPal gets siphoned off if you&#8217;re stupid enough to try and spend it as cash. I think I might need to have a word with my PayPal using friends who do this occasionally, and point out to them quite how much money its costing them.<\/p>\n<p>NB: I have one good thing to say about PayPal: the &#8220;total fees&#8221; only took ONE instance of ignoring their misleading\/false front-page claims, and less than a minute of digging, to find the &#8220;real&#8221; figures. This compares very favourably to the banks where it took typically half an hour or more, plus ignoring many false statements, to seek out their weasly smallprint and find the &#8220;real&#8221; figures.<\/p>\n<p>HSBC &#8211; If you&#8217;re cycling les than about $10,000 per annum through your dollar account (i.e. the amount you actually put in AND take out), then the HSBC Offshore account probably isn&#8217;t worth it &#8211; the punitive double-dipping charges, on top of the annual account fee, exceed the punitive one-off fees you&#8217;d get from using a &#8220;normal&#8221; sterling bank account and just taking the painful hit on foreign exchange commision fees.<\/p>\n<p>Alternatively, if you are willing to leave more than $100,000 sitting stagnant in HSBC banking accounts, many of the charges become free, and the overall charges are reasonable. But it&#8217;s pretty expensive to put that much cash in a bank account these days given the state of the financial markets.<\/p>\n<p>Lloyds &#8211; At current interest rates (3%), that \u00a31500 in-account is costing you \u00a345 per annum. At more normal interest rates, its costing you closer to \u00a3100 per annum. Factoring that in, it&#8217;s just as expensive as HSBC, except they charge you a much higher &#8220;tax&#8221; in percentage terms, and charge a 30% lower &#8220;fixed charge&#8221;. The tax is probably going to dominate, so I&#8217;d guess that it works out as even more expensive tha the HSBC account.<\/p>\n<h4>Final conclusion<\/h4>\n<p>UK banks apparently don&#8217;t want their customers to do business with the USA. They go out of their way to make it punitively expensive (and excessively convoluted &#8211; it has taken huge amounts of effort to obtain all the above information).<\/p>\n<p>This is absurd, especially given the favourable exchange rates right now.<\/p>\n<p>USA banks FTW, I guess. I&#8217;ve emailed some questions to Wells-Fargo, and we&#8217;ll see what they come back with.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Introduction I travel to the USA frequently, both for conferences and for business\/meetings. On each occasion, I spend anything from a few hundred dollars to a few thousand (sometimes the hotels are paid in dollars, sometimes part of the airfares, plus all the spending for the duration of the visit). Over the years, I occasionally [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[57],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/548"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=548"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/548\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=548"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=548"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/new.t-machine.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=548"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}